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Is there a GUNSMITH in the house?

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Post by Big Sky Bryan 11/02/22, 03:12 pm

I have a questions for a qualified gunsmith who knows muzzleloading. If not who can I call that is? Thanks!
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Post by Admin 11/02/22, 04:39 pm

What kind of Work are you needing done?
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Post by Big Sky Bryan 11/02/22, 10:25 pm

No work just lots of questions. I've been shooting this 50 cal. Scout Pistol since December and shot everything from low 777 powder charges up to 100 grains and from patch and ball to the 600 gr conical. Had an older fellow club member mad as hell at me today as he was yelling I'm going to blow the gun up and everything I said he disputed and it didn't matter what I said. His opinion was 50 grains of powder and patch and ball. I wouldn't of wasted my money for that type of gun nor do I drive 55 in an 80. There is such little information out there on this or from anybody who has spent anytime shooting it and not finding any info from TC since they are out of business. I'm not seeing any pressure signs although I don't know pressure signs on bp guns like I do on smokeless guns and ammo. I've asked lot of experienced people including gun builders and gunsmiths and even one of the most experienced bp gun builders/gun smith around and I've yet to get any rock solid answers although my fellow shooter said you can't trust anyone on the internet about this stuff! The gunsmith he said to call he said is the only guy to talk to although it took me less than an hour to find out the low down on him so I will pass and that was from a trusted source. Shooting basic loads is fine, but like with my smokeless stuff I always run them at all most max loads my entire life and have never had safety issues to speak of....I don't do things haphazard! To get to the loads I have been shooting I have worked my way up to those capacities. Today I was shooting a 300 gr black widow with 100 grains of 3F 777 at 1519 fps through an expensive chrono of a friends. I also shot once, but have about 5 other times a 600 gr conical with same powder charge at around 1150 fps. Yes the 600 recoils hard the 300 is less at about like my 454 Casull FA with max load. Is this gun going to blow up I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong. The 600's won't be used again for obvious reasons the 300 black widow I like! Not looking to harm myself or anyone, but like most things I've done my whole life I'm always enjoy pushing the limits rather than status quo. I would love to have a phone call discussion rather than just someone yelling why! and then following it up with their traditional opinions rather than facts. This is learning and you don't learn unless you try, experience or read facts. The fellow shooter I do respect as he has been at for many years, but his approach will that's a totally different story! If anybody is going to give a stupid response rather than help educate me, share your experiences etc. I will just delete the post as I have no need for keyboard warriors which is why I signed up here. Thanks I appreciate it!
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Post by McLoader 11/02/22, 11:54 pm

I am not a black powder guru, just a mechanical engineer who has some experience with steel under pressure so to speak. You are not going to get a strait answer in grains as to where the safe limit is. You can watch instances of people blowing up BP firearms online check out “The Idahoan” on YouTube. You will be surprised with what it actually takes. The reason no one can give you an answer is because failure of your pistol will take a couple things.
1. All firearms are subject to strain rate dependence. In short a firearm can withstand impulse pressure from firing much higher than the ultimate strength of the same barrel material under static conditions. You will have to produce an impulse pressure above your barrels strain rate adjusted Ultimate strength to blow it up.

2. Most metals (barrels included) will fail under pressure “plastically” ahead of a bursting or catastrophic failure. Be aware though that high strain rate causes material behavior to shift from plastic to brittle. Barrel will bulge before it bursts but the more you shock the barrel the less it behaves like metal and the more it behaves like glass during the shot. Little changes in strain rate at some point make big differences, and it becomes too complicated to predict well.

3. Bulging pressure, and bursting pressures for your pistol can be determined through computer modeling, direct measurement with strain gauge or proof testing and either way it’s going to cost you (more than it’s worth to find out). The powder charge itself is only part of the issue as you mention you have PRB, Conicals, etc that you are using each changes the time pressure curve inside your gun. Long story short is that there are way too many variables in your situation to boil down to a safe number in powder grains. What you can do is take flat-flat measurements along the length of your barrel and assure yourself the barrel has not yet deformed or bulged. (Probably has not). If you haven’t bulged or changed tolerances yet it’s not likely that you will so long as you remain consistent.

4. From where you are with powder now (and assuming you have not bulged or deformed your pistol yet) each incremental grain brings you closer to a catastrophic failure, so be cognizant that whatever you are trying to achieve is worth the risk you are taking to achieve it. To me the .500 S&W can safely do what you are asking of your BP pistol and give you follow up shots to boot.

Maybe I helped you. Be safe. Check the dimensions of your barrel, and possibly get it mag particle or penetrant tested to assure yourself you haven’t caused a crack.

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Post by Big Sky Bryan 12/02/22, 07:56 am

McLoader,

Awesome information greatly appreciated and I understand what your saying thank you! It makes sense what you've said. It may sound stupid using 100 gains of powder, but I got to this point on a snowy day where the ground was snow covered and could not find any unburned powder on the snow. With that said the gun builder/gunsmith I mentioned who has great knowledge said using the snow or a sheet for looking for unburned powder is not accurate and then he went on to explain where that theory originated from. He said much of it will be burned up in the fireball in front of the barrel. He did say that it's very unlikely 100 grains is not getting burned up even with it being a substitute. I believe him based on who he is and his experience and testing. He did say however his experience has been your likely to be closer to using 70-80 grains on handguns he's built. No more 100 gain loads for me I will try some 70-80 grain loads and run them through the chrono to see what kind of velocity I'm getting. I like the results of the 250-300 gr projectile so I won't be going beyond that either. I was reading recently where a guy had spent a ton of time working up loads and shooting them through the chrono and what he found is even though he had determined not all the powder was getting burned up his velocities kept rising until a certain point to where they fell off. What I'm learning and I might well be wrong is your also creating more pressure possibly even with unburned powder which doesn't make sense it's not in front of the projectile. You mentioned the 500 magnum I've loved that cartridge since it came out, but hate the size of the frame and I love S&W as I have a few. I shoot the FA 454 Casull, because it's one hell of a quality firearm and it's size is normal. Yes it's not the power of the 500, but still a powerhouse! If I came across a smoking deal on a 500 I'd buy it if it was a S&W or a BFR, but not seen one yet. I can say they are more pleasant to shoot than the FA since they are ported and heavier. Thanks for the education!
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Post by George_Kelley 13/02/22, 12:37 am

You ran into a safety nazi.

I very much doubt that you are going to blow up the gun, but I do think you are wasting much powder.

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Post by George_Kelley 13/02/22, 12:39 am

The Colt Walker .44 revolver used 60gr of gunpowder. Cool
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Post by Admin 13/02/22, 07:41 am

I am very familiar with the TC Scout, Both the Carbines and the Pistol. They are built like TANKS I have load Data here somewhere from an Old TC Manual, i will look and see if i can find it
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Post by Admin 13/02/22, 07:58 am

Here it is Is there a GUNSMITH in the house? 3355125947

Is there a GUNSMITH in the house? AsmIXjQ

Is there a GUNSMITH in the house? ByQicRL

Roundball Data first.
.50 Cal
Is there a GUNSMITH in the house? KrS21Uf

.54 Cal
Is there a GUNSMITH in the house? ZlFbOZm

Bullets
.50 Cal
Is there a GUNSMITH in the house? EAxinRG

.54 Cal
Is there a GUNSMITH in the house? KUiDkFc
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Post by Big Sky Bryan 13/02/22, 08:34 am

Lewis, Thank You! Now I will print it out. I've been looking everywhere for this. I read somewhere you owned one so I was hoping you had this information. Thanks! I don't approach things that go bang haphazardly. This fellow shooter I don't think has liked me since he met me 10 years ago for whatever reason. If he ever says anything again I will prove it to him!
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Post by George_Kelley 14/02/22, 12:57 am

Big Sky Bryan wrote:Lewis,  Thank You!  Now I will print it out.  I've been looking everywhere for this.  I read somewhere you owned one so I was hoping you had this information.  Thanks!  I don't approach things that go bang haphazardly.  This fellow shooter I don't think has liked me since he met me 10 years ago for whatever reason.  If he ever says anything again I will prove it to him!

Get that man's name and bring up his rude, aggressive behavior to the range officers at the club. Also bring a go pro camera and film everything if he persists and take it to a board meeting. Also consider getting a restraining order, which means he can't be at the range if you are there.
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Post by Big Sky Bryan 14/02/22, 07:22 pm

Hi George,

Nah I sent him the TC manual pages for him to see so he will know I was safe. He is someone I've known a long time and in general he's been a decent person. I really think he was just having a bad day and something more was bothering him. Our club is so small we don't have range officers and he is one of the head guy's in the club.
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Post by Bronko22000 27/02/22, 04:08 pm

Bryan here's my opinion based on my own shooting of my T/C Encore pistol.  First off any more than 80 gr of powder is just a waste. Your barrel is too short to burn it all up inside the bore. Secondly you can't expect rifle velocities out of a pistol barrel.  It will be much lower.  Third, the only option you have is to find a bullet/powder combo that shoots the best.  
My Encore likes a 300 gr Hornady XTP (either 44 or 45 with correct sabot) over 80 gr of Alliant Black MZ. I would not have a problem shooting a deer out to 100 yards and a bit further provided I have a good test and a broadside shot.
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