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Fouling shot or cold bore shot??

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Post by Kurt 21/12/21, 04:21 pm

Hello. I have been shooting my TC renegade Flintlock quite a bit the last several days in hopes of using it during our after-Christmas deer hunt. I have crossbowed deer the past four years and wasn't able to hunt the previous eight so the rifle stayed dormant but was prepped for the storage. For some reason, the 320 LEE REAL bullets that used to hold an inch and a half group at fifty yards are all over the place? I tried ALOX instead of the usual Bore Butter but it didn't help. I also have a mold for the 250 grain but it is little better. I even used some lead remover thinking that might be the issue but still no good. I have come down to patched round balls. I say "down" because over the many years I have hunted I have only ever not recovered deer when I shot them with round balls. RBs drop them right down, but, while reloading, they were up and gone without a blood trail, even in snow, at least twice. I tried a 100 grain charge of 2F a .490 ball and a .020 patch today and got acceptable results. Now that we've rounded the barn, my question. The first shot is not where I'd like it and so the "fouling shot' question arises? Is there a substitute? I can't see loading, shooting, and reloading my rifle each trip out. Could the issue be too much lube on the patch! I noticed today that swabbing between shots provided the same load experience as the initial shot but the accuracy of the latter shots is good. Any ideas? Thanks. To be clear, the first shot accuracy is not good enough.

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Post by Ivan Wagurak 22/12/21, 04:01 pm

Hello Kurt! Welcome. Just a few questions for you. How tight is your combo really? Do you have to use a hammer to start it or is it real easy to start or some where in between? My 54 tc new englander likes a good snug fit but not too tight. have you tried a lower charge that can play a part in poor accuracy too. My ne like 70gr of 3f and a .020” prelubed patch but the .020” is way too tight for hunting I have to use a .015”-.018” patch for hunting. As far as the reals go I haven’t been able to get a good group part 50 yards so you may have to try a conical of some sort like a “no excuse bullet” around 400gr give or take. The 1:48 twists will shoot just about everything. My ne gives .5”-1” groups at 50 yards I have a rear sight on order that is better for 100yards. The one that’s on it covers too much of the target at 100 to get any good accuracy. Now my 50 cal likes 80-85gr of 2f or 3f and a 400-500gr bullet. But both shoot the same clean or fouled out so play with the patch thickness play with the powder charge. I do at the range clean every shot but not while hunting. If hunting and I shoot 3 then I clean. But never needed a 2nd or 3rd. I usually don’t even have to reload they drop dead right there or with in eye sight less than 20 yards away
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Post by Admin 22/12/21, 06:41 pm

I use a Magspark 209 to simulate a Fouled bore in a Rifle i plan to Hunt with

Here is my Sequence

Step 1,  Swab the Bore with a Couple dry patches to get any excess oil
Step 2,  install Magspark 209 and Pop 1 209 Shotgun Primer off, Swab the Bore again with 2 Patches, this gets any excess oil that was Blown out of the Patented Breech, and Fire Channel.
Step 3,  Pop 1 More 209 Shotgun primer off, DON’T Swab this one! Leave it to Simulate a Fouled Bore. Install the Rifles Nipple, Now Load it and Go Hunting. No need to worry about the Black Soot fouling from the 209 Shotgun primers as they are non corrosive Fouling shot or cold bore shot?? 3355125947  

Here is the Magspark 209 adapter, They are expensive, but they ABSOLUTELY Work, and are well worth the price in my opinion Fouling shot or cold bore shot?? 3355125947
https://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/mag-spark.html
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Post by Kurt 22/12/21, 08:44 pm

Thanks for the information on the Magspark. With the info on fouling and cleaning the bore dry, I think I will experiment some more.

My patched roundball load is pretty tight. Any tighter and I'd worry I would get it all the way down. I'm using 100 grains instead of my more accurate 80 because I'm hoping for a pass-through for a blood trail.

I am going to try the REALs again with some thread tape on the back end. I don't know but they used to shoot well but something went wrong. I used to load to hunt and if I didn't get a shot I'd leave the gun loaded and just empty the pan. One year after the season was over I shot a beer can at about fifty yards off-hand with the load from the beginning of the season, it was that accurate then. I live alone and always put a little sign on the gun to remind me it is loaded.

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Post by Ivan Wagurak 23/12/21, 05:12 am

You could try a lubed felt  wad under the real bullet. This seems to help a lot with other conicals as it is a seal basically which is one of the issues with them lee reals. I use a 1/4” 54 in my 50 and a 58 in my 54. The ones you buy in the store are 1/8” thick and those will work too. It’s Just to make sure it’s tight enough to seal the gasses in. But I would think 80gr would give you a pass through though. But like everyone has said over the years and through out even this site and forums every gun is different and a law unto its own it’ll take some experimentation to find what makes that one happy. Do you know what the bore and groove dimensions are by chance? I can ask my brother too he’s a big flintlock kind of guy he has a bunch. Mine are either precisions or in lines. My 54 though gives me less than 2” at 100 with a 500gr bullet, I’m waiting on a new rear sight to see if I can get any better consistency. But with a 1:48 it’ll shoot prb’s and heavy conicals
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Post by Kurt 23/12/21, 08:15 am

Ivan, I am thinking about Idaho's information on removing residual oil from the barrel, I hadn't ever thought of that as an issue. I always assumed firing a cap on a percussion gun was simply to clear the touch hole and a wire was used to do the same on a flintlock. It did get me thinking about my previous loading procedure before a hunt. I would always get the rifle out had run dry patches down the bore, then pump the rod so as to blow air through the touchhole. Perhaps this was cleaning enough of the lube from the bore to make that first shot with the conical accurate? I might go to the range today and try again. I think the 250 grain REALs shot better than the 320s so this trip might be for them. I'll try 80 grains 2F Here is a target from my files showing how the 320 REALs shot previously at 50yds, a 5 shot group. again as well.Fouling shot or cold bore shot?? Img10

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Post by Ivan Wagurak 23/12/21, 01:26 pm

Still not too shabby there. My uncle uses 70 in every thing and gets 2 holes 1 in and 1 out. I like accuracy. But yes preping a gun can have an affect too. I have 1 said incident where I had cleaned the gun out real good ran patch or 2 down the bore with some stuff on it figured it was all set in the morning went hunting. Never wiped it out.,That evening right about 1 hour before sundown a nice doe popped out so I got on position on a perfect broad side shot….. pulled the set trigger…. 😁 squeezed the front trigger…… and pop the cap fired right on command and nothing from the barrel. I never wiped the barrel out nor did I put a couple of caps through it either and contaminated the charge. I was so mad at my self. So now I blow the barrel out put a few caps through it and wipe it again. Idaho is right on a lot of thing he shoots 1600 yards with muzzle loaders. Some thing s work great for him but not me and on and on but o think you’re on the right track. Let me know how your trip to the range goes
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Post by Ivan Wagurak 23/12/21, 05:56 pm

And I forgot, Have a Merry Christmas!
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Post by Admin 23/12/21, 06:27 pm

Nothing wrong with that Target Kurt Fouling shot or cold bore shot?? 3355125947 I didn’t have any luck with the Lee R.E.A.L. Bullets, The 250 Grain was the last one i tried, it didn’t do well at all for me, I gave up and put what i had left back in the Lead Pot
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Post by Kurt 23/12/21, 06:53 pm

Yes, that group made me confident, unfortunately, I can not get the rifle to shoot those bullets anywhere close to that now. I'd say 6" to 7" groups at fifty. I did not go to the range today as Friday is to be warmer. If I have success I will post the target. Merry Christmas!

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Post by Ivan Wagurak 24/12/21, 05:01 am

Fouling shot or cold bore shot?? F9c47c10

This is my 50 yard target. 2, 3 shot 1” groups. The top left was just a locator shot to see where I would be for an initial sight adjustment. Only dry swab between shots usually I use a lightly dampened patch followed by 2 dry. Anyways I used a 70 grain charge of 3f 777 (real black is hard to get right now) a musket cap, .020” pre lubed factory patch, (hammer tight to start)(too tight for my liking but that’s all I had on hand at the time) .530 hornady RB. I started with 60 the group was 1.5” not bad, if you can see it they’re under the repair stickers at the lower right of the bull, went to 70 I was so pleased I shot a total of 6 but because my sight is what it is I can’t hold the same spot just get it close lol so there is 2, 3 shot groups just a few inches apart at a mere 1” group each went to 80gr and yah nope opened up to like 3.5” fouling was so bad at that point I got my cleaning jag and patch stuck multiple times almost left the range but got it unstuck so I used the dampened patch then 2 dry patches between shots accuracy was still 2” so went back down to 70gr. If I use real black I use either 2f of 3f and my gun bleeds from 80gr to 90gr and the accuracy is the same 1” groups if not a tad better even. After mulling the 3 of our conversations over, and especially after I soaked that charge, When I go hunting o fire a cap or 2 then wipe the barrel with alcohol then wipe again a cap or 2 more then dry patch similar to Idaho. And when I clean clean the gun after a day at the range I always store the gun muzzle down for a day or 2 at min over light so if there’s any residual it runs out the muzzle. Once I get the 54 set at 100 then I’ll start all over with my cva hawken type rifle but as far as my 54 new englander I think 70 is the accuracy load and for hunting I think a 54 prb is plenty for 2 holes at 70gr.
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Post by Kurt 24/12/21, 03:32 pm

I went to the range today to try a very clean first shot. It did not go at all well. The first shot hit off the top of the target onto the cardboard. I tried two more and eventually got on the black, but just in. This was with the Lee REAL 250 grain 50 cal and 80 grns 2F Goex. I swabbed the bore and switched to round balls. First shot just off the black 5 oclock then the next two centered and just above the sight hole about an inch apart. It will be round balls if I use this rifle but since I have yet to figure out the first shot I will be crossbow hunting. Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!

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Post by Ivan Wagurak 26/12/21, 05:54 am

My ne don’t seem to like the lee’s either. It does like the patches round ball, and the big conicals even better I have a modified mini mold that I machined the pin so it was flat, instead of it being a hollow base. It went from 415gr to 485br and seems to like it 90 gr of black powder and a lubed over powder wad I’m getting a 1 maybe 1.5” hole at 60 yards. My other mold I ordered came in Friday but I’m still waiting for my new rear sight to come in. (there’s nothing wrong with the cross bow either) good luck let me know how thing go
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Post by Admin 26/12/21, 06:04 am

That sounds about like my results with the 250 Grain .50 Cal Lee R.E.A.L.s, They were one of the Worst shooting Bullets i ever tried.
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Post by Tank 26/12/21, 04:34 pm

Hey Kurt,
Ever tried Hornady Great Plains bullets?
I know these lucked in for me with great accuracy in my .54 Deerstalker equipped with a Lyman 57 and fibre optic front. Was using 90gr of Black MZ when hunting. Never once a pass through though.....MV just shy of 1,400fps and no more than an inch high on a clean bore shot at 50. Worked for me.
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Post by Buckskins&BlackPowder 26/12/21, 04:44 pm

IMO if the patched round balls dont shoot any better, its not the gun.

Im just no reading much consistency. Dry patching between shots is never productive unless its blackhorn209.
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Post by Kurt 26/12/21, 09:48 pm

Tank, I tried some other bullets years back but I can't remember the results. I do have some bullets, not in their original packaging that are hollow points with a "knurled' pattern on the sides. They have a dry lubricant on them. I might as well try them if I get to the range. The main problem I am having is the first shot. That's the one that counts. To be honest, I can't understand what the "fouling shot, or "cold bore shot does? I have read some target shooters (centerfire) shoot as many as 20 rounds before they shoot for a score! With patched round balls, they will group, but the first shot is out of the group by 6 inches. That shot is the deer killer.

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Post by Tank 26/12/21, 11:00 pm

Sounds like them.
I understand.
As mentioned, my experience with HGP bullets was that they seemed relatively unfussed by the ‘condition’ of the bore. Your experience could be complete different. Seems a common theme with BP.....
Never shot in genuinely cold conditions (snow and the like). Here in Australia id be tempted to put a couple through it the day before and go from there.....but that’s here.
Best of luck man.
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Post by Admin 27/12/21, 06:58 am

Like i said above, Get yourself a Magspark 209 and your Cold Bore Shot problem will go away

Here is an EXTREME Example of how badly the Cold bore shot can be affected. A few Years ago i was using my Steam Cleaner through the Breech of my Barrels after every outing, For some reason this had a HORRIBLE Negative affect with my “Slip Fit” Paper Patch Bullets and the Cold/Clean Bore Shot, I stil don’t understand why to this day?

Here is my little Handheld Steam Cleaner, NOTHING cleans like the Power of Steam, My barrels look like Brand new when i am done
Fouling shot or cold bore shot?? 2ByYgh7

This Target is about 3 Foot by 3 Foot Square, My Cold Clean Bore Shot missed this ENTIRE Target at 50 Yards 3 Mornings in a Row Shocked I have no idea where they went? After i steam Cleaned through the Breech end, The Cold/Clean Bore Shot with my Paper Patch bullets was a TOTAL Disaster. Needless to say, I quit using the Steam Cleaner through the Breech on any Rifle that i planned to Hunt with. I stil use my Steam Cleaner after Every outing, I use it mostly for external cleaning, The Nipple, Hammer, and Lock. The only time i use it through the Breech is with Rifles that i don’t plan to Shoot for a length of Time, and when i do use it through the Breech i place a little Note between the Ramrod and Under Rib that says “STEAM CLEANED through the Breech”  
Fouling shot or cold bore shot?? Vc2tp6i
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Post by Kurt 27/12/21, 11:08 am

Idaho, I use the typical hot water and dish detergent for the bore and dry patch swab it allowing it to dry a few minutes before running some patches with heavily applied Bore Butter. I use a 38 special case wrapped with aluminum foil and a flashlight to check the bore for corrosion. This has worked for me. The inaccuracy, with the REALs, that has popped up has me confused in that the bore and rifling look good. I have used a foam-type lead/copper remover in an attempt to get out any lead I might not be able to see but that didn't help. I am into the final deer season now so experimenting will have to wait. Heavy rain today and tomorrow.

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Post by Kurt 31/12/21, 07:22 pm

I'm still thinking and working through this. I went to the range today but I forgot my patching and so, I tried some old flannel shirt. After two shots I could see I was not going to get anywhere so I came home. I cast some new .490 balls and remeasured my patches and verified they run .019-.020. I know that the patch is to grip the ball so the lead must be pure. I can crease them with my thumbnail but I'm not sure loading it will imbed the material to the ball? As I write this I remember "chewed balls", I may go make some? Yes, I will. I'm going tomorrow to shoot 80 grains 2F and a .020 patched chewed ball at 50 yards. The only thing left if this doesn't, work is the patched ball is skipping over the lands. It is hard to think a .490 ball and a .020 patch with a velocity of approximately 1700 FPS would do that but that's all that remains. Might have to drop the powder charge?

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Post by Admin 31/12/21, 08:27 pm

Kurt, I would try lowering your powder Charge, TC’s are known for shallow Grooves, Try 70 Grains and see what happens there?
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Post by Kurt 31/12/21, 09:25 pm

Idaho, I hate to lose the velocity but that may be my only choice. Thanks

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Post by Kurt 01/01/22, 04:22 pm

Targets from today. If I can I'm going again tomorrow to try another "first shot" as you can see on the right target the first shot places different than the rest. I want to see if tomorrow it hits in a similarFouling shot or cold bore shot?? Imag0911
location so I can compensate for that. At this point, I have decided that the rifling is not as it was. My eyes aren't as they were either.

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Post by Ivan Wagurak 01/01/22, 09:07 pm

Kurt wrote:Targets from today. If I can I'm going again tomorrow to try another "first shot" as you can see on the right target the first shot places different than the rest. I want to see if tomorrow it hits in a similarFouling shot or cold bore shot?? Imag0911
location so I can compensate for that. At this point, I have decided that the rifling is not as it was. My eyes aren't as they were either.

Kurt A 54cal even a 50 cal prb make a good deer round even at 70gr of real black powder. My uncle shoots 70 in all his smoke poles and usually has no trouble making 2 holes, 1 in and 1 out. If you can get the accuracy there the prb will do the rest. Play with the charge till it’s as good as it gets then maybe patch material and lube too.
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